Asgard is Sexist

[foundlingmother]

"Asgard isn't sexist because of the Valkyrie!" 

Come fandom, sit a spell by my fire. Allow me to explain to you that you've fallen victim to the very same argument you're able to identify as horseshit in real life. Just because a woman achieves something great, does not mean society is great for women.

Today we have any number of examples of women who excel in areas traditionally considered masculine. We have brilliant female scientists and mathematicians, chess grandmasters, athletes, soldiers, CEOs, politicians, etc. Yet society still assumes that women, on average, aren't capable of excelling in these areas to the extent men can. How is this possible? If one woman can win a chess game at the highest competitive levels or run a company or country without it collapsing, why does society still assume that what holds most women back is the fact that they're women?

Sexism. It's sexism. The common belief (consciously or unconsciously understood) is that men are held back by their individual deficiencies, or, if society's being particularly progressive, systemic injustices favoring the wealthy, while women are held back by their greatest deficiency: that they are women.

At this point you're probably thinking, "Why is this person telling me things I already know? And what does this have to do with Asgard?"

Asgard is canonically sexist in this exact way.

Thor: And who proved wrong all who scoffed at the idea that a young maiden could be one of the fiercest warriors this Realm has ever known?
Sif: I did.
Thor: True. But I supported you…

Asgardian society assumed Sif could not be a fierce warrior because she is a woman. That was what they judged her as. That was her deficiency to overcome, and overcome it she did. You'll notice that we really don't see any female Einherjar. Sif seems to be the only female among Asgard's warriors. She is certainly the only named one.

"But the Valkyrie!"

Yes, the (very dead, save for one woman) Valkyrie. Asgard's greatest warriors. The elite of the elite. Strange that it is only in the group more skilled than other Asgardian warriors that you find women serving. Almost as if these women had to prove that they were better warriors than any other man before they were given recognition for the traditionally masculine skills they had cultivated.

"But Thor, a man, even said he wanted to be a Valkyrie!"

Thor: My God, you're a Valkyrie. I used to wanna be a Valkyrie when I was younger…until I found out that you were all women.

(I really don't like that he uses "God".)

Cute as it is to imagine Thor running around wishing to be a girl, Thor makes it clear that he didn't know only women could be Valkyries. He wanted to be one of Asgard's greatest warriors. That's who the Valkyries are. He doesn't mind serving alongside women because Thor's a feminist, or at least not a misogynist, but what attracted him to the Valkyrie had nothing to do with them being women. He didn't admire them because they were women. He admired them as Asgard's greatest warriors, the same way women today might find role models in men. You can look up to a scientist or politician regardless of the difference in gender when it's a man, someone who isn't considered an exceptional example of their gender, but an exceptional individual. Thor wanting to be a Valkyrie speaks more to his character and youthful ignorance of culturally learned gender norms than it does to Asgardian society, especially when you consider what he says next.

Thor: There's nothing wrong with women, of course. I love women. Sometimes a little too much. Not in a creepy way, just more of a respectful appreciation. I think it's great that there is an elite force of women warriors. It's about time.

"It's about time." That's very revealing. This whole ramble reminded me of the bumbling male feminist that's super concerned about saying something politically incorrect, and so says something incorrect in the process of correcting what wasn't incorrect. Thor's awkward ramble about women supports what we already saw in Thor with Sif. Asgardian society has gender roles and norms, and warrior is traditionally a masculine role. Women are not generally recognized in that role. That's why it's about time an elite force of fighting women exists.

On March 13, 2018, an anon sent me the question: "How do you think Thor and Loki's views and actions have been affected in the context of your Asgard is Sexist post?"

Let's discuss Thor and Loki in relation to this culture in more detail, and without focusing on Thor's comment in Ragnarok.

Thor
If there's one thing Thor seems fairly secure in, even in Thor, it's his masculinity, probably because he naturally finds himself drawn to the interests that Asgardian culture deem masculine (like fighting). It's the expectations of him as a prince and king that he's insecure in. Statesmanship, political machinations, etc. don't come naturally to him, at least not pre-Thor. There's a single moment that contradicts this. The Frost Giant insults him by calling him princess, but I assume Thor's response is more due to being given an excuse to fight (as insulting a man's masculinity is a great offense), rather than him feeling legitimately insulted.

In part due to that security, Thor's able to avoid some of the more misogynistic ideas in his culture. Thor regards women as his equals. I can't think of a moment where he's disrespectful to them. However, there's a teeny-tiny problem. Culture is a real bitch, and we absorb it regardless of how hard we try not to. Based on Thor's behavior with Sif and Frigga and Jane and Darcy and Natasha and every other woman he's interacted with, we know he respects women in a variety of roles in society. He even supported Sif against the actively misogynistic Asgard that expected her to fail in a masculine profession (warrior). Trouble is, we've also seen him interact with Loki. To be specific, we've seen him disregard Loki's skills. He refers to them, both in Thor and in TDW, as "tricks", which feels a bit dismissive. I doubt he's consciously dismissing them on the basis of them being "feminine", but that's the most likely reason we assume the rest of Asgard does (look at Norse mythology and how closely magic and femininity tie together–the Thor movies draw inspiration from that). Besides Loki, no other man we've seen practices magic (except arguably Odin and Thor, but their magic is of a different sort). So, Thor's unconsciously taken in some of the sexism of Asgard, and it's impacted some of the things he says to Loki. If that were pointed out to him, I think he'd be horrified.

Loki
Loki's a big ol' mess because of Asgard's sexism. Everything he values in himself (magic and, to an extent, eloquence), society at large finds weak, trivial, and feminine. This creates deep insecurities. Loki wants to be respected and valued without having to undermine who he is (who his mother, for the most part, made him), and in a sexist society, a man will find it difficult to be valued if they behave like a woman (until enough men start doing it, then they'll get disproportionate praise for doing what women have done all along–I'm thinking of the stay at home father, or just the father who does household chores in addition to working). We also see Loki being very emotional. He cries (or nearly cries) in every movie. Fandom writes him as being able to conceal his emotions ( 🎶 conceal, don't feel 🎶 ), but he's completely pants at doing so in the movies. Contrast that with Thor. Even in the wake of his mother's death, he manages to hold in a tremendous amount of sorrow. Thor actually conceals his feelings. Loki hides them behind an illusion, protecting himself from appearing vulnerable. We do see Thor's sorrow later, particularly when Loki's killed, but even that gets squashed. I imagine that's linked to Asgard's sexism, since Marvel media is made in our society, and that's the reality of our society, too. Certain emotions, "real" men just don't feel. I assume that's why Loki takes to the shadows, to illusions, to avoiding sentiment, and to failing to communicate what's upset him, which leads to conflict.

When we headcanon MCU Loki as genderfluid, like they are in the comics, you've also got the additional struggle of fearing actively identifying that way, thus giving society ammunition to disregard your masculinity even further. Sometimes people are more willing to accept a transgender individual, than a non-binary/genderqueer person. The binary, we understand. Complexity, we shun. Asgardian society, being sexist in the same way our society is, would find it difficult to understand how an effeminate person who sometimes is a woman could ever be a "true man".

Also, drawing on Loki's comic-canonical bi/pansexuality and his always canonical use of magic, the derogatory terms "ergi" (unmanliness) and "argr" (unmanly) are something to consider, something that would further prey on Loki's insecurities.

Of course, any discussion of Loki and sexism needs to address that thing he says in Avengers and the threat he makes against Jane in Thor. The latter I always considered to be a threat against her life, not a threat of sexual violence, but I know people do take it that way. In either case, I believe it's manipulation, not a real threat. Loki's attempting to rile Thor up and get him to fight back, so he says things Thor will find unacceptable. The former I consider part of Loki's performance. More manipulation. He does that throughout Avengers, but we're shown moments of vulnerability and fear, and explicitly told he lacks conviction, so the audience is signaled that many of Loki's actions are performances (indeed, the speech where Loki claims humans crave subjugation is literally a distraction) or part performance, part Loki's-a-hot-mess. Whether that line in specific was meant to be considered part of that, I don't know. It might just be an additional element thrown in to make it all the more sweet when Natasha plays Loki. I prefer to think about these moments this way because I'd find it much more difficult to like Loki if I believed he were a misogynist, and because of Frigga's impact on his life.

(Re-posted from Tumblr)

Comments

<3

[loptmeer]

I fall constantly in love with your analyses and meta, foundlingmother. :'O So lovely.

Second that comment about the usage of "god", quite infuriating.

I especially agree with what you said about Loki's words with Natasha and threat against Jane. imo, a lot of Loki's words are just for show, in general. At these two exhaustively emotional situations, he's just using everything he knows the hit the mark.

Especially living in Asgard's sexist society, he probably feels that 9/10 times his statements would hit right on his target's vulnerabilities. And if we add that Loki may have received similar comments, just for being less masculine then, perhaps he's also calculating the amount of damage he can do with them.

I also wanted to ask you about ergi! I've seen it used in fanfics before and a quick search just told me more about it, but does it pertain even more to Loki? Was this insult used to him in comics or myths? Or how likely or often do you think Loki was insulted like this, being a Prince of Asgard. I assume it would protect him from any direct insults from peasants, but would the Warriors 3 or Sif describe him that way?

also significant eye-roll to people who continue to praise Ragnarok for Thor's feminism, when he's been doing a good job of it -- and more so -- in previous films, ugh.

This also makes me wonder about Valkyrie/Brunnhilde, as we've seen in Ragnarok, her personality and behavior falls in line with more masculine traits. Is this a natural or learned behavior?

And how it differs from Hela's. Why does Odin choose Hela as his executioner?

Or how Loki's choice in studying magic and being more magically inclined was seen by Odin? Odin doesn't seem to share the same views of Asgard, and seems to have his own sort of magic from what I understand? Odin's views in particular feel ambiguous compared to the rest of Asgard. :O

Re: <3

[foundlingmother]

Thank you!

I tend headcanon that Loki would overhear people speaking behind his back. Older warriors. Common people gossiping. Perhaps some drunkard dared to say it to his face once, and Thor got in a bar fight about it. I don't think the W3 and Sif would say it to/about Loki, because I think their bigotry is more subconscious. They would never dream of using a slur, but they've still absorbed Asgard's sexism. This makes it all the more frustrating for Loki. One minute Thor's defending his honor (and btw he could handle it himself, Thor! XD) and the next he's dismissing Loki's magic as tricks. I imagine the hypocrisy of that had Loki privately fuming.

As for Val, it's hard to say. I certainly imagine that she felt it necessary to unlearn any "feminine" behaviors she might have had.

Hela I think became Odin's executioner because she fought for it and was his sole heir. I think the reasons she became so brutal and bloodthirsty and couldn't switch paths is because she felt insecure in any other role. She worked so hard to fill this one, and suddenly it wasn't the right role anymore and she had her father's disapproval.

I think Odin felt ambivalent towards Loki learning Frigga's magic. I don't think he encouraged or discouraged it. I think Odin was far more concerned with Thor's development than Loki's. Not in the sense that he never paid attention to Loki in any situation - I don't believe that - but just in the sense that Loki's education wasn't his concern and he was happy to leave it to Frigga, and perhaps he was glad to know that Thor would have an advisor that was capable of matching Frigga's skill and who balanced out Thor's strengths and weaknesses. This doesn't really make a lot of sense if you assume Odin meant to give Loki Jotunheim based on his comment about Loki bringing permanent peace, but that line's confusing regardless, so... I elect to ignore it in regards to Odin's thoughts on Loki's education.

Re: <3

[loptmeer]

Aw, I love the idea of Thor defending Loki's honor. :'D And then the dismissal of his abilities in the next second sounds a lot like him. lmao!

And true, I can see her feeling insecure in any other role. Especially since Odin's approval and image of who they are, seems to be important all around for his children. It's a shame we didn't get to see Hela before her return out of exile. I imagine she would have been less blood thirsty.

Cause from what I understand, she was in exile for 5000 years from what marvel's site suggested. I don't know if that was her sentence or there's some kind of distortion in hel or wherever she was sent to. Either way, helluva lot of time to go crazy.

I also agree with your interpretation of Odin's views. Sounds just like him. Interesting thing I found while looking at Thor 2011's script: before Thor's coronation, Odin and Frigga were discussing how good it was to have Loki as adviser to Thor (but now that I think about it, there was some tumblr post about it too)

And I too feel weird about that line. I just assumed he was either making something up or rethought his decision through the years.

Mind you, I feel like that's the most fucked up method to bring about peace. What was he going to do? Give Loki Jotunheim but then Loki wouldn't have any of the love from the frost giants, being raised aesir.

Would Odin have killed Laufey? If he didn't, wouldn't Laufey just attempt to get Loki's favor? That and Loki wasn't even raised to like Frost Giants. So he would be pretty upset, which he was.

It doesn't really add up. :O

Re: <3

[foundlingmother]

Oh, I hadn't even thought out that! Yeah, she'd have been in solitary confinement. There's no way Hela came out of that mentally healthy.

I know about that scene in the Thor script. I think it really highlights that Loki never had a chance. They're standing there saying, "Thank goodness the son we're making king has his brother to help him because he's probably not ready yet." So many scenes I wish they'd left in. That scene also establishes that Odin's feeling the Odinsleep coming on. And I'm sure you know how I feel about the scenes with Thor and Loki and Thor and Hela prior to Thor's coronation that they cut. They set up so much about the characters and their relationships! Why?!

I assume that he was waiting for Laufey to die. He might have even planned to explain the situation to Thor so he knew when it was time to bring about the permanent peace. The only way that line makes sense, other than it just being pulled out of Odin's ass, is if he planned to force the Frost Giants to submit to Loki's rule, which again means Loki's skills aren't important. It only matters if the army's up to snuff. I mean, the Frost Giants aren't just going to happily accept an Asgardian puppet on their throne (not that I think Loki would have ended up being that because I think he would have been very done with Odin at that point). So, yeah, that line... I don't know how to handle it. Maybe the hope was that they'd accept Loki if he was allowed to use the Casket to rejuvenate the planet every once in a while? I guess we'll never know. It's all up to headcanons.

[philosopherking1887]

It annoys me that apparently there's a "consensus" among a big chunk of Thorki shippers that Loki is a misogynist, largely because of that line in "The Avengers" and also sometimes arguing from his interactions with the Valkyrie in "Ragnarok" or the hostility between him and Sif. I've seen people claim that they hate all pairings of Loki with a female character, especially Valkyrie, because he's "canonically" a misogynist. That kind of doesn't fit with what we learn in TDW about how he was closer to Frigga and learned his skills from her... unless you go in a Freudian/Norman Bates direction and say that men who idolize their mothers don't deal well with other women, especially in sexual/romantic contexts. Part of the argument may also be that men who are thought to fall short of masculine ideals may cling even more tightly to them and insist on their superiority to women. Men with less power in the workplace are more likely to abuse their wives, for example.

I would think that Loki is smart enough to be able to question the norms of his culture... but that doesn't mean that he hasn't internalized them to some degree and turned them against himself. I suspect that he sees himself in Natasha Romanoff, and that's part of why he's able to get inside her head.

[foundlingmother]

I haven't seen the argument for him being a misogynist based on his interaction with Valkyrie. What are people pointing to specifically or is it just their general animosity? But, yes, this irritates me, too. I think it's based on pretty shaky foundations. As I said, those comments are made in very specific circumstances. As for his sour relationships with Val and Sif... I mean, he doesn't exactly seem to have a great relationship with Hogun or Volstagg or most people we've seen him interact with, and frankly I think Val and him would get on far better than Val and Thor if they'd met under different circumstances, but that's just my opinion.

Yes, exactly. I think he can recognize that gender norms are artificial constraints, but that doesn't mean that the constant signaling that he's lesser in some way for being more "feminine" isn't going to get to him and confuse his identity. And I think it's true that he sees himself in Nat, as that entire speech sounds like he's projecting.

[philosopherking1887]

Gah, sorry it took me so long to get back to you on this... I've got too much to do and most of it is stressful, so I end up procrastinating on everything.

The argument specifically re: Valkyrie is that uncovering her memory amounts to "mind rape." On its own this might not be a case for misogyny -- after all, Scarlet Witch did something similar to Avengers of both genders -- but when juxtaposed with two statements that could be interpreted as rape threats (the argument goes) a pattern emerges: 1) "I'll pay her a visit myself" (in Thor 1, about Jane), and 2) "I'll make Barton kill you, slowly, intimately, in every way he knows you fear" (in Avengers, to Natasha).

I kind of don't think (1) was intended by the screenwriters to be a rape threat; a torture/murder threat isn't actually any better, morally, but it is more standard for a villain in a PG-13 movie. It also took me a while to figure out that people were interpreting (2) as a threat of vicarious rape; I thought they were interpreting calling her a cunt as a rape threat, which struck me as a huge reach. I think "intimately" is actually a lot creepier if it's understood to be about torture, including psychological torture. "Intimacy" is boring as a synonym or euphemism for sex.

[foundlingmother]

I agree with you on all points. I, too, didn't know what people were talking about the first time they mentioned Loki threatening Nat with rape... cause, like you, I would think that "intimately" is creepier when it includes the psychological torture of this individual who you trust more than anything killing you in all the torturous ways he knows you fear most.

Sorry you're feeling so stressed!

[fivestillalive]

1) This is so great; it really sums it all up!!!

2) I wanted Valkyrie to zap him with the disk so bad when he did that ramble...

[foundlingmother]

Since the disk isn't my favorite thing (personal discomfort with the imagery, which I guess is a head nod to whoever made the vein effect), I'm glad she didn't, but it would be in character for her to respond to the ramble that way. I think it could make sense in the context that Thor's very tongue-tied meeting his childhood hero, but I was confused when I saw some Tumblr posts about how that scene showed how much of a feminist Thor was cause I was just like, "Oh, no, Thor..." the entire time.

Also, thank you :)

[fivestillalive]

Yeah, that was cringy! All the more so for being realistic.