Meta: A Bad Case of the Blues

[foundlingmother]

Get it? Cause they’re both blue? And bad guys? I’m hysterical, admit it.

In this meta, I will be examining the similarities between the sibling relationship arcs of Thor & Loki and Gamora & Nebula, from their childhood to their reconciliation (or “reconciliation”, as the case may be). This meta will be split into two parts: Context and Argument. The purpose of this meta is to explain why I am dissatisfied with the conclusion to Thor & Loki’s relationship arc. If you’re not a fan of Ragnarok criticism/discussion you should scroll past (sorry it's long, but I can't get the formatting to work beneath a cut I have conquered the read more!). If you are a fan of Ragnarok, I welcome polite debate/discussion.

Context
Childhood
Gamora and Nebula both lose everything, Thanos kidnaps them, and they’re trained and mutilated, turned into assassins who travel the galaxy and do his bidding. Thanos pits them against one another in a competition where Gamora always comes out on top. Nebula grew to resent Gamora for winning–that they were in this competition at all since she just wanted a sister–even though Thanos was ultimately responsible/the one at fault for this. Through it all, Gamora remained focused on her own problems, and in so doing unintentionally contributed to Nebula’s (ex: Gamora winning results in Nebula being augmented).

Thor and Loki, compared to Gamora and Nebula, have an idyllic childhood. They’re actually Odin and Frigga’s children. Odin and Frigga are bad/abusive parents, but they are parents. Both Odin and Frigga conceal from Loki his heritage. They allow Thor and others to spout racism against Frost Giants, even in Loki’s presence. They permit Thor’s worst impulses until after someone gets hurt. Odin pits them against one another in a competition where Thor always comes out on top. Loki grew to resent Thor for being the favored son–that they were in this competition at all since he just wanted to be equals–even though Odin was ultimately responsible/the one at fault for this. Through it all, Thor remained focused on his own problems, and in so doing unintentionally contributed to Loki’s (ex: Thor’s own insecurities and resulting arrogance lead to him reinforcing Loki’s insecurities with commands like, “Know your place, brother.”).

Conflict
To summarize the entire active conflict between Thor and Loki (two+ fucking films worth!) would be exhausting, so I’m merely going to enumerate the similarities where I see them.

1. Both pairs of siblings begin at a relatively equal moral position. Gamora and Nebula have both committed grave crimes against the galaxy at the behest of Thanos and Ronan. Thor and Loki both start firmly convinced of the vileness of the Frost Giant race. Gamora and Thor are, perhaps, worse than their siblings. Gamora easily steals an opportunity from Nebula in GotG. It’s not a stretch to infer Thanos and Ronan favored sending her on jobs, meaning she would have committed more crimes. Thor has genocidal aspirations, where Loki does not (at first), wanting to destroy the Frost Giants in whole or in part (look at me exercising my knowledge of the U.N. definition of genocide like some pedantic asshole) because of the prejudice he’s absorbed from society and, almost certainly, Odin specifically.
2. Gamora and Thor both come to the realization that they were wrong. Gamora betrays Thanos and finds a new family, while Thor confronts his greatest flaws and adjusts his behavior and values.
3. Meanwhile, Nebula and Loki hurt innocent people to achieve their (sympathetic) desires. In Nebula’s case, she helps Ronan attempt to annihilate the Nova Empire in exchange for the opportunity to destroy Thanos, the “father” that’s tortured her all her life. In Loki’s case, he first attempts genocide against the Frost Giants in the midst of a mental breakdown/identity crisis in order to win Odin’s approval, and then attacks Midgard to survive Thanos, get away from the torture, and to lash out at the people he feels did him wrong (Thor and Odin).
4. At various points, Nebula and Loki attempt to kill their siblings. (I’m not going to list them–you know them.)
5. Gamora and Thor initially attempt to reason with their siblings, to talk them down from the conflict, but they both, inevitably, give up on them. Gamora gives up on Nebula at the end of GotG. At the beginning of GotG Vol. 2, Nebula is a bounty Gamora means to collect. Thor gives up on Loki twice. First, at the end of Avengers. Second, in Ragnarok.

Argument
You know, looking at the similarities between the sibling arcs, I have to wonder about fandom’s treatment of Nebula vs. Loki. I, for one, have never seen anyone claim that Nebula doesn’t deserve Gamora, despite the fact that both Nebula and Loki try to kill their siblings, lead armies that devastate a city, and attempt genocide/to massacre the people of an empire, not primarily out of a desire to kill (though in Loki’s case there’s certainly a bit of that when it comes to the Frost Giants), but for other reasons (family issues/Thanos issues). Granted, Nebula does both at the same time, whilst Loki spreads these things out, but that doesn’t explain the difference in the fandom’s treatment of these characters and their relationships with their siblings.
In part, it’s because we’re far more understanding of physical suffering. It’s hard to deny how much Nebula’s suffered when we’re looking at how much. When we’re looking at a lot. Loki’s suffering is emotional/internal or implied (this is the case with the torture he suffered).

The more important answer, however, is that their reconciliations play out very differently. Gamora and Nebula’s positions the two as equals in this conflict and facilitates a (brief) mutual dialogue, where Thor and Loki’s does not.

Just to be clear: reconciliation =/= redemption. Thor and Loki do not reconcile in TDW, even though Loki does redeem himself (his illusions aren’t solid, he was stabbed, his life was threatened, he did protect Jane and Thor, his final act in the movie isn’t evil, he doesn’t hurt Odin, he just wants to be free and safe, he does usurp the throne, but he offers it to Thor who denies it, and yes Thor’s allowed to be upset Loki lied to him… this has been an abridged version of an argument I’ve had over and over and over). How tragic to think that they would never have had the opportunity to reconcile if Loki had died as originally intended…

So, Thor and Loki do not reconcile in TDW, but they do “reconcile” in Ragnarok, and there’s a comparison to be made to Gamora and Nebula’s reconciliation in GotG Vol. 2, given that their sibling relationship arcs are really quite similar.

Gamora and Nebula’s Reconciliation
We will start with Gamora and Nebula to establish what a reconciliation should look like when the roots of your conflict with your sibling were watered by your parent(s), when there’s hurt on both sides, and when you’ve reached a point where neither trusts the other.

As I’ve already mentioned, Gamora begins GotG Vol. 2 ready to hand Nebula over to the Nova Corps in exchange for the bounty on her. She’s the very definition of done with her sister.

The turning point for them comes when they fight on Ego’s planet (on Ego himself, really). To start, Gamora doesn’t let Nebula die (because she does love Nebula, for all that Nebula keeps trying to kill her). She rescues her from the crashed ship. There’s a moment where they catch their breath, and then Nebula attacks again. Nebula wants to kill Gamora. She does. And she doesn’t. She, too, loves Gamora. So, when she gains the upper hand, she ends up backing down, deciding instead to claim victory after so many years. Gamora responds to this with frustration. She doesn’t get it. Nebula’s never communicated any of her grievances to Gamora, and Gamora’s never really asked, so Gamora doesn’t know. And she makes assumptions based on the evidence she does have.

So many assumptions that, in this intense moment, uncommunicative Nebula… communicates.

Gamora: Nebula, I really don’t need this. My day has been bad enough-
Nebula: I don’t need you always trying to beat me!
Gamora: I’m not the one who just flew across the universe because I wanted to win!
Nebula: Don’t tell me what I want!
Gamora: I don’t have to because you make it obvi-
Nebula: You were the one who wanted to win, I just wanted a sister!
Gamora stops suddenly, struck. Nebula is cracking.
Nebula: You were all I had, but you were the one who needed to win! Thanos pulled my eye from my head and my brain from my skull and my arm from my body because of you!
Gamora doesn’t know what to say. Nebula is almost instantly embarrassed. They sit there for a moment, saying nothing.

And Gamora hears it. She fucking hears it.

They don’t discuss it right away. Ego becomes a distraction. This allows Nebula an opportunity to save Gamora, which reinforces what we’ve already seen, but what Gamora probably still needed more evidence of: that Nebula cares about her sister. It also serves as an apology that Nebula isn’t ready (might never be ready) to communicate verbally.

Later, Gamora has the chance to speak:

Gamora: Nebula.
Nebula turns toward her, but she doesn’t look her in the eye.
Gamora: I was a child. Like you. I was concerned with staying alive until the next day - every day. And I never considered what Thanos was doing to you. I am sorry.
Nebula nods.
Gamora: I’m trying to make it right, everything I did.

You see, they’re both given a chance to explain their perspective, and both given a chance to hear the other. Neither one of them is invalidated by the film. Gamora is not condemned for not knowing what Nebula was thinking or for Thanos’ cruelty. The movie understands that to hold her responsible for that would be wrong. But Gamora does apologize. She does acknowledge Nebula’s experience and hurt. She expresses regret for not having considered her. It’s both true that Gamora isn’t to blame, and true that she wishes she had done better by Nebula.

To summarize:

1. Nebula’s grievances and experiences are legitimized.
2. Nebula communicates them.
3. Gamora listens to them.
4. Nebula proves she does love Gamora.
5. Gamora acknowledges Nebula’s grievances and experiences.
6. Gamora is not blamed for Thanos’ actions.
7. Gamora’s grievances and experiences aren’t delegitimized.
8. Nebula listens to them.
9. Nebula forgives Gamora. She lets go of the anger.

Voilà! Reconciliation!

Thor and Loki’s “Reconciliation”
Before I get into this, I want to make one thing clear: I think that this “reconciliation” is a problem with the film. I am not blaming Thor. Thor is a character subject to the whims of his writers, actor, director, etc. And I think the people working on this film got him wrong. And Loki, too. And, most importantly, their relationship. And that’s why their “reconciliation” isn’t one.

Thor doesn’t start Ragnarok done with Loki. It builds through their first scenes together. I think he reaches the point where he’s officially, without a doubt, done with Loki’s shit in the scene where Loki comes to visit him in the gladiator cells.

Their “reconciliation” begins in an odd way, with Loki reaching out to Thor. He joins Thor’s prayer for their father. He even mentions his biggest and most painful grievance:

Loki: It hurts, doesn’t it? Being lied to. Being told you’re one thing and then learning it’s all a fiction.
Thor picks up some stones that have fallen from Korg’s leg ad casually starts throwing them through Loki’s illusion.

Ok, not off to a great start. Loki’s communicating a grievance (even if it might be a bit disingenuous–who knows?) and Thor’s ignoring it. But it’s still early in the film. There’s plenty of time to circle back around to this and deal with it…

Oh…

See, in theory, this scene’s pretty solid. It’s not a bad change to have Loki be the one reaching out to Thor (in his own way–I mean, the offer to rule Sakaar together was never going to appeal to Thor). It’s not wrong to have a Thor who, following the death of their father, isn’t in the mood to be the bigger person. Good people don’t have to be generous 100% of the time, and Thor’s under a lot of stress.

It’s just, the final say on Loki’s grievances should not be this:

Loki: Say something!
Thor finally looks right at Loki, speaks fast and curt:
Thor: What would you like me to say? You faked your own death, you stole the throne, stripped Odin of his power, stranded him on Earth to die, releasing the Goddess of Death. Have I said enough, or do you want me to go further back than the past two days?

Thor refuses to acknowledge Loki speaking to him because Loki’s done many bad things. And he has. I mean, I wouldn’t blame him for a lot of this stuff, but, again, Thor’s stressed right now, and he’s not wrong that if you do go back further than the past two days, you run into things like New York. Bad.

But Loki being/having been a villain should not invalidate his grievances the way Ragnarok thinks it does, at least not if the goal is to reconcile Thor and Loki. It didn’t invalidate Nebula’s, even though she committed many of the same crimes. We accept that Nebula still needed to have her experience acknowledged by Gamora for them to reconcile, so why don’t we expect Thor to do the same with Loki’s grievances about living in his shadow, or the slights against him, or being lied to his whole life in order for them to reconcile?

But let’s move on to the elevator scene/”Get Help” scene…

Loki: Here’s the thing. I’m probably better off staying here on Sakaar.
Thor: That’s exactly what I was thinking.
Loki: ...Did you just agree with me?
Thor: This place is perfect for you. It’s savage, chaotic, lawless. Brother, you’re going to do great here.

It starts with Loki attempting to manipulate Thor. He’s trying to push Thor into being the one who extends a hand, who begs asks Loki to return to Asgard with him. That’s what Thor’s done at other times. Instead, Thor agrees with him.

Loki: Do you truly think so little of me?
Thor pauses, considers his brother. Then:
Thor: Loki, I thought the world of you. I thought we were gonna fight side by side forever. But, at the end of the day, you’re you, I’m me... I don’t know, maybe there’s still good in you, but let’s be honest, our paths diverged a long time ago.
Loki is wounded by Thor’s willingness to discard him. Masks his feelings with:
Loki: It’s probably for the best that we never see one another again.
Beat. Thor pats Loki affectionately on the shoulder.
Hold on Loki. Did Thor just get through to him?
Thor: That’s what you always wanted.

Loki tries once more to manipulate Thor. This time Thor goes for a bit more of a genuine response. He does admit that he thought the world of Loki. Which, of course, he did. I mean, he didn’t always show it well, but he still did.

So, here’s Thor’s perspective on their childhood: The brothers who fought side by side. Who were going to be that way forever. Thor’s already appealed to Loki with this perspective in Avengers. Recall the line about how they played together, which was Thor’s way of asking, “Do you not remember how close we were? Do you not care?” It’s good to restate these established perspectives as part of a reconciliation. When a reconciliation is actually occurring, it will be the first time that both characters are absorbing the perspective of the other. It’s no longer going in one ear and out the other.

Then the speech gets kind of wonky. There’s the assumption that Loki’s just bad, as though there’s been no reason for his villainous behavior. No good reason, anyway. Loki doesn’t counter this. Loki just looks hurt by Thor’s willingness to discard him. There’s also Thor’s manipulation. See, this is false acceptance. He’s pretending to accept Loki’s stated wishes: to be strangers, not brothers–they were never brothers to begin with. He knows it’s not what Loki actually wants, and he knows it will drive Loki crazy. Or, perhaps, get through to him.

But, no, it drives him to do something stupid and petty:

We follow the real Loki as he slinks away towards the security system panel. He activates the panel and brings up a screen that will set off the alarms palace-wide!
Thor: Oh, Loki.
Loki turns to see Thor looking not at all surprised.
Loki: I know I’ve betrayed you many times before, but this time it’s truly nothing personal. The reward for your capture will set me up nicely.
He triggers the alarm.
Thor: Never one for sentiment, were you?
Loki: Easier to let it burn.
But then Loki sees Thor holding up a fob device. Loki realizes that Thor affixed the Obedience Disk on him in that heart-to-heart moment.
Thor: I agree.
BZZZT! Thor zaps Loki and holds down the button. Loki hits the ground, writhing in pain. Thor approaches. Pause.
Thor: Oh brother, you’re becoming predictable. I trust you, you betray me. Round and round in circles we go.
Thor continues to “think about it” for a beat while Loki convulses in agony on the floor. Finally, Thor kneels down:
Thor: See, Loki, life is about, it’s about growth. It’s about change. But you seem to just wanna stay the same. I guess what I’m trying to say is that you’ll always be the God of Mischief, but you could be more. I’ll just put this over here for you. (Note: This line does not appear in the movie.)
Thor places the fob on top of the security panel, so close but so far from Loki’s paralyzed reach. (Note: In the movie he tosses it far away.)
Thor: Anyway, I got places to be so good luck.

More validation of Thor’s perspective. No mention of Loki’s motivations. Remember how Gamora attempted to speak over Nebula, attempted to say that Nebula made it so obvious what she wanted? How she made assumptions? Yeah, well, here’s Thor explaining their situation to Loki. And, you know, Thor’s not a mind reader. It’s not wrong that he should think Loki just betrays him for petty reasons.

But the film should not hold that understandable assumption up as truth, because that’s not what we saw in the other movies! That’s not the reason! That’s never been the reason! Let Loki have a voice, for fuck’s sake! Let him explain his side of things! Because Thor would listen, just like Gamora did! Let open communication establish trust and understanding between the brothers!

But no, instead we watch Thor talk down to Loki while he wriggles on the floor. And Loki never challenges Thor's words. And in that silence is a passive agreement with Thor’s assessment of the problems in their relationship: namely Loki’s nature. Not Odin’s parenting and lies. Not Thor’s unintentional slights. Not valid insecurities and apparent betrayals/hatred breeding mistrust between them. No, it’s all on Loki. And I’m not saying Loki is blameless. He should have to make right the hurt he’s done to Thor. No one made him hurt Thor. That was a choice. He’s just not solely to blame. There’s more going on, and a true reconciliation would have to address that.

Thor offers an ultimatum: Be a better person, or I’m done. I can’t put up with you the way you are acting.

illwynd put best my thoughts on why this ultimatum does nothing good for their relationship:

“that was something that tdw got very right, for all its other flaws, because it showed that loki started to come back from the edge when thor chose toextend trust to him, treated him like his brother, took him seriously, and generally allowed loki to believe that their relationship was not permanently stained. what loki needed was to be able to trust in thor’s love for him: that it wasn’t just circumstantial. that he, as a person, mattered to thor, and that thor would be able to re-accept him after his transgressions and would continue to value him.”
“but the above scene from ragnarok, thor’s ultimatum, would utterly shatter loki’s trust in all of those things. and, importantly, it would do absolutely nothing to heal thor’s trust in his brother, either, because… i mean, it was compliance under threat of abandonment. that really doesn’t prove anything about someone’s trustworthiness or whether they have “changed.” all it proves is that you know where their buttons are located.”

And then Thor leaves. Loki returns to Asgard, helps save Thor and their people, does what Thor needs him to. They have some pretty amusing/sweet exchanges.

Yay…

And then, this:

Loki: It suits you.
Thor turns to reveal Loki standing by the door. A smile.
Thor: Perhaps you’re not so bad after all, brother.
Loki: Maybe not.
Thor: Thank you, Loki.
Thor picks up a soap dish. (Note: Soap dish? Was this scene supposed to be in a bathroom?)
Thor: And if you were here, I might even give you a hug.
Thor throws the dish at Loki. Loki catches it.

To summarize:

1. Loki reaches out.
2. Thor disregards Loki because Loki’s done bad things.
3. Thor offers his perspective on their relationship pre-Thor.
4. Thor assumes Loki’s just bad now.
5. Loki does not challenge this because the movie agrees.
6. Thor offers Loki an ultimatum.
7. Thor leaves.
8. Loki accepts Thor’s ultimatum, returning to save Thor and their people.
9. Thor says that Loki isn’t so bad, and Loki agrees. Everything’s fixed.

Wallah… “reconciliation”…

I hope that it’s clear to everyone how Gamora and Nebula’s reconciliation differs from this.

Now explain to me why? Please?

(Re-posted from Tumblr)